Talk:Andreas Papandreou

Cleaning up

A week ago, I started rewriting the "Political Career" section up to 1981, because there were almost no references and there were some biased statements. This was ok, since I was mostly filling the gaps, or let's just say that I was mostly adding into the narrative. My additions are not perfect by any means but at least it now has a more cohesive narrative and it has references supporting this narrative. I will move in the 1981-1989 period, which in my opinion is a mess. Most of the references are either broken, or they are opinions from (almost exclusively Greek) newspapers or even reports from political institutions that are not peer-reviewed. Three more things. 1) I find that some references were used in a biased way. 2) References such as books were provided without pages, making it impossible or very challenging to determine whether the reference supports that statement. 3) Some information provided are details; WP is not a list of facts, in our case, a list of all the laws that Papandreou enacted. It is important to get to the big picture.

Either way, a clean-up is required. I intend to go through this by examining each part one by one. Anything that does not stand on WP standards will be moved or removed. I will try to preserve as much as I can. I intend to use academic books and journals as replacements for references. I have included a link ([[1]]) the point before starting doing changes in the "Political Career" as a point of reference. Any help is welcomed, but please also be polite in offering criticism, especially by providing academic sources with pages. Thank you.A.Cython (talk) 02:24, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I have mostly completed the rewrite of the Political Career except for the 1981-1985 period. Now it's turn, starting in a few days from today. Some material will be kept or rewritten to make it cohesive under the same narrative structure. Other material will be removed; some is over-detailed (e.g., I fail to see the value of stating this unless someone explains what these categories are: "Saturday working was also abolished for certain categories of workers"). In many cases, the references do not support the statements. For example, "The impact of the PASOK Government's social and economic policies was such that it was estimated in 1988 that two-thirds of the decrease in inequality that occurred in Greece between 1974 and 1982 took place between 1981 and 1982." The reference provided does not quite say this:

 Other studies (Tsakloglou, 1988), using data from both the 1974 and the 1981/82 HES, concluded that only a small reduction in the percentage of population below the poverty line had occurred between 1974 and 1981 -- from just over 24 per cent in 1974 to just under 23 percent in 1981. (see pages 191-192 for more [2])

I have other issues with this type of reference. It does not appear to be peer-reviewed, and it relies on other studies, which I would prefer to rely on those studies directly. Not to mention that the reference does not state that most of the poverty elimination took place between "1981 and 1982". The rest of the subsection has the same problem(s), more or less. Please use this talk page if there is a disagreement or provide feedback. Thank you.A.Cython (talk) 03:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding what you said about the use of the word "categories," I used that word to avoid copying what the author of the source said. In the source it says specifically which groups those new benefits (e.g. special family allowances) were geared towards. Zictor23 (talk) 16:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I understand, and I appreciate the work done; do not get me wrong. These reports help identify and gather journal articles to support the relevant statements, but I feel uncomfortable using these reports in the article as they do not appear to be peer-reviewed. Nevertheless, remember that my complaint above is that from the point of view of someone unfamiliar with Greek culture, they would not be able to understand the particular statement regarding "categories"; the causal reader is not expected to go and read the 100+ page report to figure this out.

This WP article is of "top" importance for the "Greek politics" task force, and if we want to upgrade it, we need to present a coherent, easy-to-read (clarity-wise) narrative that is fully supported by reliable references that meet the standards of WP. It's easier said than done. I am not the most experienced editor; there are other editors who are much more experienced than me. However, with the recent changes made, I hope to take the article in the right direction based on WP standards. Specifically, I am in the process of cleaning up the references, i.e., no citations of web pages/blogs, no citations of Brittanica, and focus mostly on academic books and journals. I am also converting all the references to the same template, etc. However, the most important thing is to provide a cohesive narrative that covers most of the notable events in Papandreou's career. We cannot cover everything, and the article is already getting big.

My goal is to get the article from C to B and, if lucky, to GA grade (see the assessment here). The topic is quite challenging and potentially controversial, which is why I am communicating my changes in advance. Happy editing.A.Cython (talk) 02:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

If you like, I could change the wording "various categories" to "various groups of people" if that makes it easier to understand for other people. I'm happy to do that.

Also, thank you for keeping the reforms I added a while ago. I thought they were useful to include. I think its good the way you have added all of those subheadings as well. Zictor23 (talk) 11:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for the changes. Please give me a couple of weeks to add the new material (there is a lot of material I need to go through, and unfortunately, I can dedicate only a few hours per week). Then, we can merge the information into an easy-to-read narrative. A.Cython (talk) 01:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome. Also, I recently moved various reforms to new sections on the page I created, if thats okay. I thought it would be easier if certain reforms were placed in specific sessions e.g. I placed most of the social security reforms under a Health and welfare section. Zictor23 (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, but I have been slower in my reading; I have updated the economic part of the 1981-1985 era. Let me know what you think... if I have missed something, feel free to include it. I urgently needed to place the events in a narrative rather than letting it in a bullet-point description. In the process, the reports were not kept, but I am in the process of trying to find the relevant references and include those here. More often, I work more incrementally. I will expand on the other sections, but remember that I am a little slow. A.Cython (talk) 02:22, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV, Sourced Material, etc

Future Wikipedians, the specific article is controversial for the Greeks since Andreas was either the Messiah or the devil, depending on who you ask on the political spectrum. The effort that has recently been made was to fill in the gaps with the events and facts of Andreas' life based on reliable sources. Now, some may not like what the reliable sources say. Maybe my writing skills are not that great. Maybe I am human, and I made a mistake. But please do not remove the updated material outright, as it took considerable time to compile. Please use the talk page and provide your reliable sources with pages, make suggestions, and point out any mistakes. If you are too eager to make a change, try to include it without removing previous material. The important thing is to be inclusive. Thank you. A.Cython (talk) 15:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Recently, the anonymous user user_talk:82.36.162.198 placed a WP:NPOV tag on the article. I will wait a few more days to make his/her case on the talk page. So far, I have not seen any evidence despite repeatedly asking him/her to make the case on the talk page. Moreover, most of the edits from this user seem unreliable. I will not go through all of them; I will give one example. In revision 1262174805 [3], he removed a whole subsection having multiple sources and deleted the following cited sentence: "Papandreou's return to power was mostly unremarkable because he was in fragile health and able to work only a few hours per day, and for much of 1995, he was bedridden." The citations were one sentence away. When I brought it back and placed the citations to reinforce the statement. He/she removed again revision 1262270186 [4], by claiming ... I own Liakos' book, which does not state under any circumstances about his fragile health, nor the fact that he has been unable to work. Accusing me of propaganda when you are clearly manipulating sources, ... . Now, for the record, I did not accuse him/her of propaganda, having a POV, yes, potential vandalism, yes, which I consider his/her edits unless explained in the talk page. Now, I will provide the quotes from these references:

• Liakos et al pp 345-346: In November 1993, he was defeated by a frail Papandreou, [...] Though in failing health, Andreas Papandreou held the premiership from November 1993 to January 1996. For much of it, he was incapable of working more than a few hours a day. [...] Meanwhile, from mid-1995, Papandreou’s support within the party was crumbling. He was bedridden for most of his final days in office, and yet, though obviously incapable of fulfilling his duties, he seemed unwilling to resign.

• Gallant p 304: Papandreou’s final term of office was his least memorable as he was in poor health, and was long past his firebrand days. Largely restricted to his home because of illness, ...

• since then I added another reference Bellou, p 103: Prime Minister Papandreou, still outwardly combative, was in reality politically chastened, in poor health and distracted by family problems. His official visit to the United States in April 1994, an event for which he had angled for years, was newsworthy because of his haggard appearance and subdued demeanour, but for little else.

• one more that I have not used yet, Koliopoulos & Veremis p 181: Andreas’s deteriorating health confined him mostly to his home from where he governed giving instructions to his ministers.

Clearly, Liakos' quote disputes his/her claim without any doubt... despite stating that he/she owns the Liakos' book. There are more issues with this user's edits, but I assume it is in good faith for now. If he/she does not make a case for WP:NPOV in the following days, the WP:NPOV tag will be removed, and more of his/her edits will be thoroughly examined and challenged. Given the controversial nature of this article, I anticipate numerous cases of edit wars or even vandalism in the future. A.Cython (talk) 23:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Papandreou being described as using Marxist rhetoric

Although the sources are valid, I don’t agree with Papandreou being described as using Marxist rhetoric. He himself described himself as a believer in the mixed economy, as noted here (https://www.nytimes.com/1982/03/21/magazine/the-paradoxical-papandreou.html). He was a social democrat, not a Marxist. This isn't a criticism of the edits. I just thought it was worth pointing out that although he employed rhetoric that appeared Marxist he wasn't a Marxist. zictor23 (talk) 18:30 25 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. Stearns describes Papandreou's early years (before leaving for America) as being close to a Marxist. Andreas's rhetoric in the early 1970's is best described as Marxist. In contrast to an ideologue, rhetoric and actions are two entirely different things for a politician, especially for Papandreou, known for his reversals. The same thing happened to the label "social democrat," which Papandreou, early on, rejected this label; I read it somewhere... I need some time to unearth it.

In summary, I would say that in the 1970s, Papandreou's Marxist rhetoric was slowly moderated. Then, Papandreou became a socialist (democrat) in the late 1970s and early 1980s, transforming into a neo-liberal based on his actions in his third term (1993-1996). He was a politician, through and through, not anchored to any single ideology. I check the text and make appropriate changes. We do not want the reader to get confused. Thank you for pointing this out.A.Cython (talk) 19:00, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

I removed the "Marxist" characterization from the text, as we do not have space to discuss every aspect. The important thing now is consistency. People can read the relevant sources provided.A.Cython (talk) 19:13, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Regarding the future of the article

As promised, I am finishing the cleanup (one more subsection to finish). I nearly rewrote everything, and the text size was more than tripled. The latter is kind of an issue given that the length is just below 15000 words, which is the upper limit, see WP:SIZERULE. Some trimming is required. Eventually, some parts can be reduced by transferring into a new article, e.g., the Koskotas scandal deserves a dedicated article.

• Most non-peer-reviewed sources were removed. Sources were expanded to include reliable sources (books, academic journals).
• All the references are neatly organized into different categories, and the Template:Sfn is exclusively used. I cannot stress enough how important this is for the quality of the article... Please use the new template instead of the "< ref >" in the future.
• I have added as many figures/photos as possible without violating copyright. However, more are needed for an article of this size and importance. So if you have any, please include them.
• The most relevant events of Papandreou's life are now accounted for, except for a few things I will explain.
  • I did not touch his psychological problems. For example, before 1981, he was in "deep depression" and recovered with the help of meditation and counseling with a psychiatrist, and again in 1987. Featherstone & Papadimitriou book provides briefly some info on this. Stearns also touches on Andreas's dark moods.
  • I did not detail how the press haunted Papandreou regarding Liani (Liani's nude photos, Papandreou indifference to national mourning for the 1986 Kalamata earthquake victims, making Liani into Eva Perón, etc.), his family fights, or the "pink villa." I found this distracting despite having dominated the political discourse at the time. Some are described in Kaplan's book, but still.
  • I did not include the story in his early years, where he might have snitched against his friends under the Metaxas regime. Stearns provides enough details in his book.
  • I did not include much on the failed separation between State and Church. I only found one good source: Journal of Hellenic Diaspora, 23:1 (1997) by Adamantia Pollis. Maybe for the future. In the current version, there is a tiny mention in the "women's rights" subsection.
  • I did not include how the 1996 Olympic Games were given to Atlanta, Papandreou played a key role in this. A brief description is in the text as a comment (visible only in the edit mode), along with the relevant citation.

I will submit it for assessment in the following days (after finishing the remaining task on populism), and it would be a good idea to keep the article as is till we receive feedback.A.Cython (talk) 20:33, 25 January 2025 (UTC)